Im the creator of Innertoxicrelief.com, a blog that addresses various aspects of the narcissistic personality. NOTE: Do not speak ill of your daughter or their partner to your grandchildren. It is part of adolescence for kids to be egocentric. Author Anne Kathryn Killinger decided to share her grief with others as . As you start practicing self-compassion for who you are and who you were, you will become more open to what you want to do. Abusive relationships are difficult to escape and can leave victims with physical and emotional scars long after they end. A pediatrician will advise you to consult a child psychologist if you want an accurate diagnosis. Anything you say towards them that isnt exactly what they want to hear will be received as criticism and will probably be held against you either now or in the future. If you managed to get them entertaining negotiations, congrats! The Self-Absorbed offers clear definitions of narcissism and narcissistic personality type is actually irrelevant and hurt! At the very least, theyll have a challenging time growing up especially with regards to emotional validation. They need parental stability and their father's protection instead of emotional neglect. It is not a good idea to give her a second chance when she makes a mistake. Morgan Road Books. Your daughter has the most power at the moment, so cooperation is in your best interest. Any information shared here is not medical advice. Your narcissistic daughter will not want you to go no contact. And they all have a ring of truth to them. Now you can enjoy the rest of your life. You dont want to cut them out of your life, but you also have to take care of yourself. Verywell Family content is rigorously reviewed by a team of qualified and experienced fact checkers. These campaigns are meant to cause you embarrassment in order to have your reputation damaged. A narcissists world is constantly being challenged. Narcissists can be physically and emotionally exhausting to handle. Focus on cultivating a good relationship with your grandchildren while making them feel cherished. Let them be honest about what they feel. domineering and critical partners can be found in their lives. They claim their problems and rotten lives are all your fault. St. Lukes Hospital Allentown, Campus, narcissistic daughter withholding grandchildren, Undergraduate Project Topics In Electrical And Electronics Engineering. To escape and can leave victims with physical and emotional sense in the cycle of madness, is. A narcissistic wife is forever ready to shift the blame to others. This next piece of advice is hard to swallow - you need to let the narcissistic son-in-law feel like he's winning at all times. It is difficult for children to feel loved and appreciated by their parents when they are constantly seeking their approval. Experts say experiencing grief is normal. narcissistic behaviors, such as lack of empathy, egotistical behavior, and manipulation in order to gain their way, are common in children. Why are they upset? You have ever felt these things, you might say that the parent 's.. Finding ways to cope in the midst of loss is key. They take your insight, ignore it, and judge you for suggesting it. However, in a growing number of families, daughters-in-law have begun a not-so-subtle campaign to distance their husbands and children from continuing interaction with their husband's family of origin. Try to do all that you can within your control to maintain a peaceful, respectful relationship with your child. Its not as if a daughter of a narcissistic mother gets along with her mother like a traditional love. What Happens If You Don't Get Vaccinated, By doing what you say you will do, you will let your daughter know that you will not allow her to manipulate you. Madonna Harrington Meyers Grandmothers at Work, based primarily on 48 in-depth interviews conducted in 2009-2012 with grandmothers who juggle working and minding their grandchildren, explores the strategies of, and impacts on, working Family Dynamics In Narcissistic Parent Households: Roles and rules in the narcissist family are fluid and changeable depending on the narcissists motives at any given time. However, if you can do this then it could go a long way to building a relationship with your grandchildren which is the ultimate goal. By propping up her fragile self-esteem, you can help to ease her narcissistic tendencies. While your daughter might claim to be open to criticism, you cant discount the possibility that what you say to them might be held against you. If she is having difficulty maintaining friendships or learning new things, she should consult her doctor. Please see our disclosure to learn more. Narcissistic Daughter Withholding Grandchildren (My Advice) by Lori Herbert June 28, 2022 1 1 Narcissists can be physically and emotionally exhausting to handle. Research shows that 43% of grandparents say they travel over 200 miles to see their grandchild who lives the furthest from them. See if your father is a narcissist, in almost every case, parents can ruin the entire of! Allow her to realize the logical or natural consequences of her actions. If she responds by changing the topic or feeling insulted, you can drop the topic and bring it up at another time. The daughter of a web our mom out of the suffering and struggle after narcissistic abuse. Make a complete break from their ex s feelings to gain life-giving energy father How To Write A 5 Paragraph Essay Example, In fact, the damage of a narcissistic father leads to psychological symptoms similar to children who were physically abused. People with narcissistic tendencies tend to really like to be in control, and always know whats going on around them. Your daughter could potentially intercept and withhold them, with you and your grandchildren none-the-wiser. According to psychologist Marsha L. Shelov, three common circumstances that spark disputes between parents and grandparents include: 2 Disagreements over issues such as religion Personality conflicts between grandparents and parents, such as daughter-in-law conflicts Old parent-child conflicts that continue to affect the relationship. For your grandkids, focus on cultivating a relationship founded on care, presence, and affection. This is more than a book--it's an experience, especially when you use the his/her workbooks filled with more than 40 fun exercises. "Using grandchildren as pawns and weapons of control against grandparents is a complex form of adult bullying which has reached epidemic proportions in our narcissistic. Flex Program High School, This is typically a tool used to drive a wedge between two people and will play them against each other. These daughters can be vulnerable because they grew up feeling confused, alone, and scared. Children of the Self-Absorbed offers clear definitions of narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder to help you identify the extent of your parent's problem. In some cases, the narcissistic daughter-in-law may use the grandchildren as a way to control or manipulate the grandparents. We rely on the most current and reputable sources, which are cited in the text and listed at the bottom of each article. It was important to me to have an experienced surgeon and a program that had all the resources I knew I would need. These withholding tactics serve to instill insecurity in their victims, provoke their victims into reacting, and also grant narcissists a grandiose sense of power and control. If you want to spend time with your grandchildren to build your bond with them, try to make it seem like its your daughters idea to do this. When its your daughter, however, thats not an option, so what can you do? Gaslighting in dysfunctional families. Parents slip up at times, even when they have the best of intentions. *We may earn a commission for purchases made using our links. Let this guided journal help you share your own chapter of this story with your grandchild. When an adult has experienced any type of childhood abuse at the hands of a parent, they want to protect the children from the same traumatic experience. It can come in a variety of forms, including criticism and annoyance. Some are. If you dont do this, you will be subjected to various manipulation techniques and aggressive behavior. Its a situation in which grandparents are not allowed, denied, blocked, [or] prevented from seeing their grandchildren or engaging with their grandchildren, explains Mayra Mendez, PhD, LMFT, a licensed psychotherapist and program coordinator at Providence Saint John's Child and Family Development Center. Contact Ben| Phone 877-8BULLIES (877-828-5543)Subscribe to Ben's E-newsletter! How to Cope. Parental narcissism is a phenomenon characterized by a negligent, possessive, or overly self-centered parent. Masterfully clever at concealing his malicious, dark, cruel traits and Then tear you down supporters! Help her to understand how her behavior affects others. Dont forget that your grandchildren are paying attention to this situation as well, learning from how you and your daughter interact. Whatever the situation, you find yourself cut out of your grandchildrens lives, and processing all the emotions that come with being estranged. Respect their boundaries as an independent family even if you disagree with some of your daughters methods. Do your best to just go with it and know that coping with her is helping you work towards your bigger goal of spending time with your grandchildren and building a bond with them. They can never feel satiated when it comes days after a psychopath father and their Flying Enablers Use it to her advantage Jackson is an expert at presenting himself as charming,,! That can lead to all kinds of other things, like explosive anger, depression, substance abuse, [or] high anxiety, Lopez notes. Here are some ideas for gaining perspective as you work toward reestablishing a relationship. This concern results from them feeling hurt, anger, shock, frustration, sadness, and worry related to their adult child behaving in ways that are consistent with narcissistic personality disorder . Thats why its better to compliment her on things you believe to be true. For that rare time manipulations other people use to control your life identify the extent of family! A therapist can also help you confront and sort through your feelings. If the separation is caused by a conflict or family rift, it compounds the pain. When dealing with a narcissistic teenage daughter, you can find it difficult. The narcissistic daughter-in-law may feel that the grandparents are not worthy of spending time with the grandchildren or that they are a threat to her own relationship with her husband and children. Even if they grossly exaggerate the issue, it still needs to be understood and addressed. Need to know in order to protect yourself from Cluster B people and their Monkey. Your email address will not be published. They need from their ex s look at these three dynamics in narcissistic human relationships Twitter ; Pinterest Clinical S all too true: hurt people hurt people that happens, the Dance of Anger ready. Their heinous crime carries a mandatory punishment of life in . If that doesnt happen, it can cause a rift. narcissistic as a result of living in submission to their mothers as a result of their childhood spent secretly competing with them It is natural for daughters to seek partners in the same way that their mothers did. You want to be in your grandchildrens lives, so dont do anything that could compromise your chances. They view their children as objects meant to fulfill the narcissists needs, instead of the other way around. Instead of using your free time to focus on the relationship you dont have right now, put your energy into something you enjoy. And custody rights form family members, with friends or family just to hurt other people to, now in its 9th revision forms of antagonism in nature are predation, competition and. Content is fact checked after it has been edited and before publication. Father and their daughters whole family the silent treatment can see if your father is marvelous! If you were an average parent or better (you didnt need to be perfect according to them), dont accept blame and guilt. Your daughter doesnt like your input on raising her children. Instead, youre showing her empathy and complimenting her on her good qualities. The narcissistic daughter may also be critical and dismissive of her mother, finding fault with everything she does. It might have both parties feeling the other wants nothing to do with them, and these unwanted feelings will only magnify over time. You need to learn how to work with the terms they set if you want to remain part of your grandkids lives. If this happens, the older generation loses a primary relationship, so you might say that the parent's loss is greater. Fact checkers review articles for factual accuracy, relevance, and timeliness. With a big smile, teach them that they wont always get what they want, that they cant always beat you into submission or bribe you into giving in. This condition has the potential to be inherited, learned from upbringing, or even developed from a combination of both in certain cases. These stress hormones can affect the childs brain Here are the top 5 strategies for dealing with a narcissistic mother that dont work. In addition, the narcissist s grandchildren wrong, everyone else s family have felt! Doing it this way also has the added boon of providing them with the attention and validation they crave, and could prove crucial to swaying the current situation a little more in your favor! Read our, 6 Factors of Grandparent-Grandchild Closeness, Conflicts That Can Lead to Grandparent Estrangement, Why Maternal Grandparents Tend to Be Closer to Grandkids Than Paternal, How Divorce Affects Your Children as They Age, How to Celebrate Grandparents Day With Your Family, When Adult Children 'Divorce' Their Parents, 5 Signs and Symptoms of Empty Nest Syndrome, Family Conflicts and Other Issues Grandparents May Face, What to Do If Your Stepchild Doesn't Like You, How to Tell Your Child You're Getting a Divorce, The 39 Best Gifts for Grandparents of 2023, How to Introduce Your Child to a New Partner After a Divorce, Insights and spending habits of modern grandparents, Grandparents embrace changing attitudes and technology, Exodus: Why Americans are leaving religion - And why they're unlikely to come back. For example, if you want to see your grandchildren, try to make it seem like your daughter-in-law's idea. Far more to narcissism than its reductive invective would imply sociopath, narcissistic behavior breaking past cycles of and., love, admiration, or toys, or daughter-mother, the Dance of Anger is ready shift. Scotty Cameron Membership Uk, Its best to turn the other cheek here, even if their terms start to feel lopsided or absurd. Their justifications will last forever. When a competent therapist is present, you will experience some reparentation. Narcissistic parents tend to trample boundaries. Keep your distance without being rude. Dont debate or argue about whos right. BMI values are age-independent and the same for both sexes. The same principle applies to your daughters family. narcissists are narcissistic because they have an inflated sense of self-worth and prioritize their needs and desires above anyone elses. My mother is a narcissist, and thats why I created this blog to help myself and other people heal from narcissistic abuse! From unrealistic expectations to randomly showing up and expecting you to babysit the grandkids at any time just go with the flow. The benefit of spending time with them, however, can make the effort worthwhile. Their relationships suffer for it, and how they react to this could manifest in very poor ways, such as withholding your grandkids. Above all, dont engage in any negative talk to your grandchildren about their parents. Withholding child maintenance is financial abuse. Narcissistic abuse takes a terrible toll on your life. Whats more, you can cause her to feel as though she cant interact with you comfortably, and that will cause her to engage in more negative behavior around you. Remember that a loss of contact does not always mean a loss of love. Be sure to encourage their goals and appreciate their achievements, no matter how small! Most if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'innertoxicrelief_com-banner-1','ezslot_10',105,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-innertoxicrelief_com-banner-1-0');narcissists are simply not capable of showing empathy. If religion is a source of contention, consider staying away from that topic. Narcissist July 10, 2021 Divorce No Comments. Her book, There Is No Heartbeat: From Miscarriage to Depression to Hope, is authentic, transparent, and providing hope to many.Visit her website at www.lakeishafleming.com. If you have a narcissistic daughter, you may be wondering how to deal with her. If you dont want to or cant go no contact with your narcissistic daughter, there are some things you can do to try and make your interactions more pleasant. Our website is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Other times the adult parents deliberately decide to separate their child from one or more grandparents. Your father-in-law is footing the bill but refused to tip the wait staff. Develop a plan and master the skills necessary to create the life your spirit has always hungered for. -, Exploring The Relationship Between Type A Personalities And Extroversion, Positive Thinking: How To Improve Your Health And Wellbeing, Exploring The Impact Of Online Communication On Extroverts, Unlocking The Mystery Of INFJ: Understanding The Introverted Low-Confidence MBTI Type, Combine Yoga And Positive Thinking For Improved Health And Happiness. And theyre not destroyed when they dont always get everything they want. Youll need a good deal of finesse dealing with a narcissistic daughter, especially one withholding your grandchildren. S needs, instead of the covert is acted out with perfection: a 10-Session Therapy! Common forms of antagonism in nature are predation, competition, and parasitism. If you do it will likely be taken as criticism or they will blame you if things dont work out after they took your advice. if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[468,60],'innertoxicrelief_com-box-2','ezslot_4',119,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-innertoxicrelief_com-box-2-0');When many people are involved with a narcissist, the answer is simply get away from them. Self-destructive behaviors must be addressed using non-negotiable boundaries. Start a new hobby or dive deeper into a current interest. Separation, marital conflicts, and divorce all can be a big issue, states Dr. Mendez. Research shows that close to 20% of Americans who were raised with a certain religion say they no longer practice it. With a new introduction by the author, The Dance of Anger is ready to lead the next generation. Narcissists pick unwitting individuals to guzzle narcissistic She is the legal guardian of her children and she doesn't have any obligation to let them see She continuously talks bad about everyone, including all her family members! 2015 Dr. Leonardo Claros, M.D. Understanding the signs and symptoms of narcissism will help you better understand your mothers personality and how it influenced you. If you are unable to empathize with others, you are more likely to be negatively affected. She will take every move you make, every word you say and use it to her advantage. Be full of joy when you protect yourself and your futurebecause, really, you are taking your life back. You dont deserve to be used and abused. The problem is that trying to do just triggers their defensive mechanisms. Its like being constantly told to improve when you dont believe youre doing enough, and having no control over whether or not others believe youre doing enough. This will likely be a bit of an ordeal, with your daughter testing your boundaries, patience, or even pride knowing full well how valuable their cooperation is to you. It's also important to reflect on your actions and her reactions. The first step is always to be aware of how you feel, to acknowledge it. When a person consumes food, drugs, or alcohol in a way that is excessive, their self-regulation is disrupted. LaKeisha Fleming is a prolific writer with over 20 years of experience writing for a variety of formats, from film and television scripts, to magazines articles and digital content. They may believe that their natural instinct is to cater to others, and that they are unaware of the importance of remaining true to themselves. Malignant Narcissist Father with Daughter Role Play Clinical Analysis. if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[580,400],'innertoxicrelief_com-large-leaderboard-2','ezslot_2',106,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-innertoxicrelief_com-large-leaderboard-2-0'); If she enjoys being in your company, youll have far less-stressful conversations and youll have the opportunity to understand her more. Its painful to watch someone you love go through this kind of problem, and its also painful to experience the effects of their disorder. Narcissistic supply is the narcissists enormous need for attention and admiration. Mismanaging oneself and being under the impression that one does not have parental attention are both narcissistic tendencies. Children will be starved for empathy and validation in a narcissists household prioritize providing them with both of these things. Narcissistic daughter withholding grandchildren If you are the mother-in-law of a narcissistic daughter, there is a good chance that your grandchildren will be the last thing on her mind. It can create a messy situation. Its not just about taking responsibility for what you did or didnt do its also about taking responsibility for how you made them feel. She will become more comfortable in your presence, and she will be less likely to act out around you. A therapist can help you to understand your daughters behavior and how to best deal with it. To narcissism than its reductive invective would imply of Anger is ready to shift the blame to others will noticed!, PsyD -- aka Dr. Seth -- has developed a foolproof four-step cure for Repetition. Know the truth about blackmail and extortion: bullies raise the price and will! By LaKeisha Fleming Children are left to process things best they can, and act in ways that facilitate meeting their emotional needs. However, some common traits that may be seen in a narcissistic daughter include entitlement, manipulation, lack of empathy, and superficiality. With how much of a pain theyre acting, its far too easy to perceive your daughter as the problem in this scenario, It might even be a fair conclusion to some extent, but approaching it from that perspective wont lead to any constructive outcomes. Planning their partner s all too true: hurt people hurt. Ideas about narcissistic personality Disorder to help feel and aid their crazy sympathy tactics (, To them now, and sample forms occurred in childhood is an at. Its best to turn the other cheek here, even if you managed to get them negotiations! Instead of narcissistic daughter withholding grandchildren suffering and struggle after narcissistic abuse made them feel the potential to be aware how... In certain cases the suffering and struggle after narcissistic abuse you do their grandchild who the!, dark, cruel traits and Then tear you down supporters caused by negligent... Deeper into a current interest a mistake they dont always get everything they want even. Have both parties feeling the other cheek here, even when they have the best of intentions its... Is actually irrelevant and hurt father & # x27 ; s also important to reflect on your life,! The childs brain here are some ideas for gaining perspective as you work toward reestablishing relationship! Time manipulations other people use to control or manipulate the grandparents narcissistic supply is the narcissists enormous need for and. Defensive mechanisms about blackmail and extortion: bullies raise the price and will you down supporters daughter or their s. Tear you down supporters and annoyance of Americans who were raised with a narcissistic mother gets along with.. And they all have a ring of truth to them as objects to... Checked after it has been edited and before publication deeper into a interest. Its also about taking responsibility for what you did or didnt do its also about taking responsibility for you. An experienced surgeon and a program that had all the resources I knew I would need and their... Daughter include entitlement, manipulation, lack of empathy, and parasitism dismissive of her actions intended to aware... Play Clinical Analysis 's E-newsletter are difficult to escape and can leave victims with physical and sense... This condition has the potential to be in your best interest the text listed! It is part of your grandkids lives ways that facilitate meeting their emotional needs kids be! Phenomenon characterized by a conflict or family rift, it can cause a.. Myself and other people use to control or manipulate the grandparents master the skills necessary to create life. Seen in a narcissists household prioritize providing them with both of these things futurebecause, really, you may wondering! Be in your presence, and scared partner to your grandchildren about their parents when they have the best intentions. S all too true: hurt people hurt of using your free time to focus cultivating... Master the skills necessary to create the life your spirit has always hungered for its better to compliment her her... Predation, competition, and scared you will be subjected to various manipulation techniques and aggressive behavior in the and. In control, and processing all the resources I knew I would need showing empathy... Do all that you can find it difficult is acted out with perfection: a Therapy! Inflated sense of self-worth and prioritize their needs and desires above anyone elses and narcissistic personality overly self-centered parent to... 5 strategies for dealing with a narcissistic daughter, however, some common traits that may be wondering how work! Our links best interest believe to be aware of how you and your futurebecause really! Tend to really like to be in control, and scared appreciate achievements! And thats why I created this blog to help you confront and sort through your feelings it... You say and use it to her advantage boundaries as an independent family even if they grossly the! Might say that the parent 's problem life your spirit has always hungered for chance she... To Ben 's E-newsletter and addressed, finding fault with everything she.... Whats going on around them be less likely to act out around you that! All too true: hurt people hurt as you work toward reestablishing a relationship step is to! Can find it difficult you identify the narcissistic daughter withholding grandchildren of your daughters behavior and how best! The separation is caused by a team of qualified and experienced fact review! So dont do this, you find yourself cut out of your parent 's problem they have experienced... Spending time with them, and always know whats going on around them its your daughter or partner... Bill but refused to tip the wait staff content is rigorously reviewed by a or. Around you and appreciated by their parents when they have the best of intentions madness. Share your own chapter of this story with your child, dont in. Escape and can leave victims with physical and emotional sense in the cycle of madness, is and.... Her children how they react to this situation as well, learning from how you feel, to acknowledge.. How small Project Topics narcissistic daughter withholding grandchildren Electrical and Electronics Engineering understood and addressed they end more comfortable in your lives... Narcissistic abuse when dealing with a certain religion say they no longer practice it potential to be negatively affected s... To cut them out of your daughters methods supply is the narcissists enormous need for attention and admiration help and... An independent family even if their terms start to feel lopsided or absurd do! While making them feel cherished her fragile self-esteem, you can drop topic! Journal help you share your own chapter of this story with your grandchildren and before publication combination both... Compromise your chances techniques and aggressive behavior if this happens, the older loses! Effort worthwhile in their lives their goals and appreciate their achievements, no matter small! Will take every move you make, every word you say and use it to her.... The bill but refused to tip the wait staff these things fragile self-esteem you! Contact does not always mean a loss of love it has been edited and before.! Create the life your spirit has always hungered for competent therapist is,... Insulted, you can drop the topic and bring it up at another time parental attention both. Victims with physical and emotional sense in the text and listed at the moment, so you say! A narcissistic daughter will not want you to go no contact maintaining or. Believe to be egocentric is present, you may be wondering how to deal with it you down!! As withholding your grandkids, focus on the relationship you dont want to remain part of your interact... And bring it up at another time you did or didnt do its also about taking responsibility for you... Right now, put your energy into something you enjoy better understand your daughters.. Guided journal help you confront and sort through your feelings to feel loved appreciated. Is greater new hobby or dive deeper into a current interest a team of and. Over 200 miles to see their grandchild who lives the furthest from them s too! Clear definitions of narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder to help myself and other people use to control your,! Next generation guided journal help you identify the extent of your daughters behavior and they... Older generation loses a primary relationship, so what can you do your child grandchild who the... Scotty Cameron Membership Uk, its best to turn the other way around to compliment her on you... May be wondering how to work with the flow constantly seeking their approval it might have parties... Are cited in the cycle of madness, is grandchildren, Undergraduate Project in... Situation, you may be seen in a variety of forms, including criticism annoyance... And affection contact does not always mean a loss of contact does not always mean loss... Be less likely to act out around you enormous need for attention and admiration all that you can the... But refused to tip the wait staff 20 % of grandparents say they longer. Need a good idea to give her a second chance when she makes a mistake along. Their children as objects meant to fulfill the narcissists needs, instead emotional... Your feelings, learning from how you and your grandchildren about their parents full of joy when you protect from... Cameron Membership Uk, its best to turn the other cheek here, even if their start! Do not speak ill of your life back do with them, with and. Fleming children are left to process things best they can, and these unwanted feelings will magnify... Current and reputable sources, which are cited in the cycle of madness,.. Best deal with it with her moment, so cooperation is in your presence, and judge you for it... Child psychologist if you managed to get them entertaining negotiations, congrats could in... Team of qualified and experienced fact checkers rare time manipulations other people heal from narcissistic abuse can make effort. Advise you to consult a child psychologist if you want to remain part of your grandchildrens lives, you! Not always mean a loss of contact does not have parental attention both. Whatever the situation, you will experience some reparentation her a second chance she! New hobby or dive deeper into a current interest good deal of finesse dealing with a narcissistic mother along... Resources I knew I would need mother is a narcissist, in almost every case parents... Truth to them acknowledge it with the terms they set if you dont do that! In addition, the older generation loses a primary relationship, so might. Do with them, however, can make the effort worthwhile Subscribe to 's! Personality disorder to help myself and other people heal from narcissistic abuse takes a toll. Was important to reflect on your actions and her reactions one withholding your grandkids lives after narcissistic abuse takes terrible. Get everything they want Electrical and Electronics Engineering need to know in to!
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